Curse

luminoire · Jul 22, 2009, 03:58 AM // 03:58

actually, with strong secondary red bar options via rits now...i hardly find a need for heal or even hybrid monks anymore. the hero monk i bring with me is always prot, whose elite is almost always shield of deflection...one of the best monk elites hands down imo. zb is overhyped, lol...it's just an elite red bar option on a prot bar imo.

Jaigoda · Jul 22, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

I disagree with what a lot people are saying about HB.. HB is not the problem; if the monks are anywhere decent, they should have no troubles managing energy, and it's honestly one of the easiest good monk builds. Basically, it provides bad players with a build that is simple to use. HOWEVER, it's still not noob-proof, because as people are mentioning, it's easy to drain yourself if you just spam skills, especially Heal Party. In other words, it's not really the monk bar itself, but the fact that noobs like to spam and overheal all day, and so run out of energy very quickly. The thing is, this would happen with pretty much any other monk build as well. Energy management is one of the biggest parts of the lower monk stages.

What HB does is give the newb monk the best chance for success at their skill level, since it is at least slightly easier to manage energy with it than most builds, and a skill heals unconditionally, unlike prots. Because if you give them a harder-to-use build, chances are they'll just discard it anyway and go back to their previous terrible build. See, most of the players, monks especially (they know they're usually in demand, so their egos are retardedly huge), honestly don't really want to put in the time to get better at the game. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, then blame the rest of the team. That's how PvE works for most of the people that are pugging. HB just makes it so that pugs at least have a decent chance of success.

Avarre · Jul 22, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That is true if you can provide a build that don't use tanks+nukers that can finish DOA HM and UW HM faster than a tank+nuker build.

Well yeah, that's kind of the other thing people are complaining about. All that massively buffed AoE and invulnerable tanks kicked skilled play in the balls. Prior to that, heavy physicals with partywide defense could outdo pure tank/nuke setups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You are suggesting that given two options, A and B, where:
1) A will work most of the time, and is easy to use; and
2) B is a superior option, but only if one is able to use it correctly;
that you would actually advise someone, whom you assume not to be able to use B correctly, to just use A.

No, he' still fairly correct. Until a player has the mechanical skill to use B, he is better off playing with A.

The problem is the transition between the two - the average GW player does not know what 'mechanical skill' means in the first place and will not understand how they would improve. Furthermore, they aren't encouraged to shift to build B at a point when they have the ability to do so, because A already works.

If there's a situation where no such information to transition (ie: wiki saying that hybrid is better and should be used) is available, overall its better to just make them run B. In a perfect world, though, you use more complex bars as you develop to maximize your ability at all points.

Improvavel · Jul 22, 2009, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I bet most people use HB over WoH because "clicking a player bar+moving the mouse to WoH symbol + clicking woh" takes much more time compared to click heal party.

Especially if they have a crappy mouse.

News Flash - You can press the key assigned to it. So, clicking the player bar and pressing a key reduces the time immensely. If you don't want to mess with key assignments, WoH on 2 and DKiss or Patient Spirit on 3 work really well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

But at any given moment where there's one or two HM frontliners on our backline, or we begin to receive any pressure, the monk runs out of energy and people begin to die.

Careful. Defense isn't an exclusive obligation of monks. A throw dirt, some ward, some enfeebling blood, some snare, etc, could solve that problem too.

On the other hand, Aegis is as easy to press as Heal party. 2 Monks with Aegis could mitigate most of that damage. Don't understand why they should bring healing breeze or seed of life over Aegis (guess blue numbers and loads of arrows). Ok, you should check to see if there is an Aegis icon on your status, but cmon is that so demanding?

Jenn · Jul 22, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

What's with all the overgeneralizations? There's a thing called "middle-ground" and it's sometimes a good place to be!

To be fair, some pure-heal bars are great in certain situations, and in fact, if it is all you need in some cases, why get your panties in a bunch? I'm not an idiot - I'm being serious. Take almost all of normal mode for example, save for maybe some boss spikes and dungeons, you can get by with one, sometimes two monks, prot optional. HM? Places exist, especially where metabuilds dictate who plays, that you do not need more than one monk. Whether or not these monks are great is besides the point, sadly. If they get the job done, what does their skill level actually matter?

And on the contrary, there are some places where running prot-heavy monks can be somewhat useless or even counterproductive. Please don't tell me I need to expand on PvE Monster skills, mesmers, necros, etc.

What a lot of people here are failing to give credit to is that each place requires something different, and many places don't require much at all. Hybrids can be good, prot heavy can be good, and heal heavy can be good, too. Focus less on being so hard core that you think you can generalize everything, imo :P.

As someone said early on enough, this game is designed so that you can win with mediocre people in your party. If you can win well enough, there's little incentive or reason to do anything different, no? I'm not saying that I think it's okay that everyone is bad, but reality is there. Stop ignoring it.

Oh, and as others have said: why blame the skill bars? Granted, some skills are bad, but some builds are good with just terrible players behind them.

glacialphoenix · Jul 22, 2009, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Whether or not these monks are great is besides the point, sadly. If they get the job done, what does their skill level actually matter?

The issue, as mentioned by several people, is that they aren't getting the job done. This has as much to do with player skill as the bar itself.

HB/HP as a bar in itself isn't an issue. It does what it's meant to do.

Quote:

What a lot of people here are failing to give credit to is that each place requires something different, and many places don't require much at all. Hybrids can be good, prot heavy can be good, and heal heavy can be good, too.

While I don't doubt that HB/HP has its place - heck, I really dislike that bar, and I've still run it myself when I felt it was useful - I think I see it too often. Each place requires something different, I agree. Yet everytime I try to PUG - be it Cantha, NF, Prophecies, or GWEN - my fellow monk is almost always a HB monk - pure heals, no prots.

Jeydra · Jul 22, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

I go back and do the same Zaishen bounty/missions with my necro running a Mark of Pain AP build, and the dual HB monks collapse instantly unless there's SY! and cons. Sometimes they throw up and die WITH it. I'm getting the idea that teams just try repeatedly until they randomly get lucky with an SY! paragon in their PUG, since none of them actually check to see whether any of the party's physicals have SY!.

The problem isn't HB then, but the teambuild. Double HB is inefficient; they conflict with each other - but it works. I'd guess double HB + Aegis + Prot Spirit will suffice for most of PvE, although subbing out one HB for another elite would be more effective. Double HB with neither Aegis nor Prot Spirit is suicidal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Ensign made the point earlier that there's a HP/BiP backline, but that's not even true for any of the PUG PvE I've seen so far. Furthermore, people are flat out dying in these pugs under any real pressure. Normally in an 8man situation, there is a minion master to resolve any tanking issues. Also, warriors take the damage up front for the most part, so monks dont have to worry about prot all the time. But at any given moment where there's one or two HM frontliners on our backline, or we begin to receive any pressure, the monk runs out of energy and people begin to die.

It's not even a case of HP/GoLE/HB really even WORKING. It doesn't really work. All of the vaunted amazing efficiency you see when the combo goes off is worthless against continuous damage on one target, and is spent after two heal parties.. great.

Two HM frontliners should not be able to pressure out a Monk so quickly. If it's happening, then I'd guess:

1) You're facing a boss who does >200 damage a hit. In that case you should aggro properly with Prot Spirit.
2) You have heavy DP. In that case you should aggro properly with Prot Spirit.
3) Someone is tanking the frontliners and / or standing in AoE. In that case you should blame him, not the Monk.
4) You've been fighting the two frontliners for a minute and they're still alive, bashing away. In that case you should blame the team for not killing fast enough, not the Monk.

Of course nobody will cast Heap Party if it's only one target getting trained, that's common sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

I have yet to see people tell monks what to bring on their bar, or provide alternate suggestions, other than me (ie this mission has no hexes, we dont need hex removal). I don't think the community inside GW itself is telling players what to bring. Something else is driving it.

I wouldn't advise either unless someone specifically asks me, and even then I'm not likely to ask for wholesale changes. With PuGs, they might be prickly and rage, or we might end up discussing a while, and so on - all takes time. One of the reasons I H/H so much is that I can get started quickly and finish quickly. As you might guess, patience isn't one of my virtues.

paranon · Jul 22, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You don't bring removal in areas that don't merit it, of course.

I don't, but how many people get a build with removals in it, and are too lazy to change according to the area? More are than aren't, i would guess.

Jaigoda · Jul 22, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I'm one of those people who almost always brings Cure/Dismiss on their bar, simply because I don't want to take the time to modify my bar to every single area. I rarely have any troubles monking any area with my generic WoH build. Of course, if I know that their aren't any crucial hexes or conditions, then I will gladly replace dismiss and/or cure for another prot. But if I'm just going through and don't feel like completely optimizing my build, I'll bring both just in case.

And I think the moral of this thread is that people should stop blaming monks for everything. It's not only the monk's job to carry defensem, it's the team's job as a whole.

glacialphoenix · Jul 22, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

And I think the moral of this thread is that people should stop blaming monks for everything. It's not only the monk's job to carry defensem, it's the team's job as a whole.

But the monk bears some responsibility too.

Anyone who's played a monk long enough hates being blamed for everything.

At the same time, if a player isn't pulling his or her weight, s/he should expect to be called out for it. With respect to the HB bars - I very seldom see people bringing Prot Spirit - or any kind of prot at all. If you know that chances are that your party members have no way of helping you mitigate damage, then you should be taking the steps to help mitigate that damage yourself. If you don't - then the question is, why didn't you?

Wards would help. Enfeebling blood (<3) would help. In the likely event that you don't get either, then you should prep for it, especially if you know that going in without some kind of damage mitigation is effectively suicide. If you don't, then yes, you share part of the blame.

If the warrior overaggroes or stands in AoE or Well of the Profane, that's not the monk's fault. If the ele can't kill fast enough because he's doing stupid things like trying to flarespam and firestorm in HM (exaggeration here, but you get the drift), that's not the monk's fault. If the squishy keeps trying to leeroy before you can prot him, that's not the monk's fault.

If you knew full well that you would probably need damage mitigation, that the chances of someone else bringing one were extremely slim, that you were in a position to bring even just one skill to help mitigate damage - and you didn't - yes, it is at least partially your fault.

Er. Generalised you, of course. Not targeting at anyone in this thread.

Jaigoda · Jul 22, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

/snip

If no one else is bringing damage mitigation in any kind of difficult area, then you need to either tell them to or leave. A monk, especially a mediocre one, is not going to be able to handle an entirely offensive party on his own.

Again, the role of preventing and healing damage is not only given to the monk. Yes, he's the main source of defense, but others still need to do their part to help make it easier for the monk. If people aren't listening and don't bring adequate defense, then tough for them, they should now be short one monk.

glacialphoenix · Jul 22, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Again, the role of preventing and healing damage is not only given to the monk. Yes, he's the main source of defense, but others still need to do their part to help make it easier for the monk.

At the same time, the monk does carry the blame if he isn't doing his job. You agree that he's the main source of defense, and that others should do their part to make it easier on the monk.

Many HB monks rarely bring any form of defense - by which I mean 'damage mitigation', not just red-bar pushers. That's a problem, and even if other party members try to make it easier on him, that problem remains. I'm thinking in terms of just one prot on an otherwise all-heal bar, but it's not even there. Being a monk doesn't excuse the weak link from not pulling his weight. If anyone can't pull his weight, the whole team suffers.

...you know what, it's late and I think I just wrote an entire paragraph which I now can't really parse. tl;dr I agree with you on most points, but I think most HB monks still need to learn how to prot, and monks still share the blame if they're not pulling their weight. Many monks seem to think they're exempt from the last rule, yet many times I've had to cover my fellow monk because he's the one doing the stupidest things.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 22, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

This discussion brings to light many of the reasons why I don't PUG much anymore.

My main is Warrior, and when I try to suggest to a PUG Monk that I would appreciate at bare minimum (s)he bring Protective Spirit, and I get told "I'm the Monk, I think I know what Monk skills I need to bring, worry about your build and I'll take care of mine, kthx", that's when I leave the party without another word.

When I dust off Medic (my Monk) to play, I generally bring this bar:

Glyph of Lesser Energy
Word of Healing
Patient Spirit
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Shield of Absorption
Cure Hex
Dismiss Condition

It has everything I need to take care of my party and myself. If the area doesn't need Condi or Hex removal, I can slot something else for Cure Hex/Dismiss Condition.

When I Monk, I go with PUG's. Why? Because I ping my build, and if they don't immediately /ragekick me for not bringing a Healer's Boon red-bars-up build, they get to see my WoH Hybrid build rock face. I am communicative in team chat, and I let my party know when someone is moving outside of my range or doing something that is going to lead to them getting curbstomped. I see this a way for me to help other people learn. It's slow, it's not always effective (depending on how much the others are willing to listen and try and understand), but it's something. Hell, at least I'm trying to help others learn better Monking habits.

upier · Jul 22, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

My point, if long winded, is that the *perspective* you have on this discussion is counterproductive. You can't possibly find the small, granular truths if you aren't even using the right lens.

What we are dealing with here is a single monk build that will not be used for soloing.
Without knowing:
1. what other party members will be tagging along and what their builds are
and
2. what the area of choice is
any build we come up with is going to be flawed.

This isn't me saying that I am a monking god.
This is just me saying if this thread is to have a point - the "core" build can not contain crutches, since their inclusion leads to builds not being as good as they could be (which is what the OP is bitching about). And if a person is unable to play on (or understand) the level that doesn't require crutches - that person can not matter in deciding on what should be ran.

IronSheik · Jul 23, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Snip

Win.

/Closethread

Smarty · Jul 23, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Today I met a HB monk (with rebirth) who told me bringing PS would mess up their whole bar, followed by another HB monk with resurrect for their res. I seriously hope that both people had read this thread and were on a windup rather than really being that bad.

glacialphoenix · Jul 23, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Today I met a HB monk (with rebirth) who told me bringing PS would mess up their whole bar, followed by another HB monk with resurrect for their res. I seriously hope that both people had read this thread and were on a windup rather than really being that bad.

Well...I had the following encounter some time back:

Leader: Monks ping plz.
Other Monk: *pings standard pure-heal HB/HP bar.
Me: *pings generic WoH
Other Monk: ...ewww, noob WoH monk.
Me: ...you have something against prot?
Other Monk: ...*ragequit
Ele: *snicker

People have been running with HB/HP for so long it's become increasingly set in stone, even though it shouldn't be.

Burst Cancel · Jul 23, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

No, he' still fairly correct. Until a player has the mechanical skill to use B, he is better off playing with A.

The player is only better off in the sense of immediate results; that A is better in the short-term is obvious to the point of not being worth discussion. But in exchange for these results, the player gives up all hope of improvement. You can't learn how to use B by sticking with A. Encouraging the use of A based on assumptions about a player's current skill level is doing them a disservice.

If someone is bad at interrupting, to you advise them to drop dshot, or do you advise them to get more practice?

glacialphoenix · Jul 23, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

^

But most people only care about long-term results if they're going to be associating with that player on a regular basis. If a player is a friend, or a guildie, you'd probably consider it more worthwhile helping them and encouraging them to get better so they can use B effectively.

PUGs are entirely short-term; hence the prevalence of people sticking to A and encouraging the use of A.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 23, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

If someone is bad at interrupting, to you advise them to drop dshot, or do you advise them to get more practice?

This statement is so full of win.

The same thought patterns prompt me to PUG when I Monk, not because my bar is leetsauce, but because I can (hopefully) teach other players how to up their game, which in turn, helps the community (yeah, being extremely optomistic, here, but what the hell, I won't lose any sleep over PUG'gers not taking my advice).